2012 Releases
Transcript of Interview U.S. Ambassador Alexander Arvizu on “Top Story” at Top Channel Television (January 19, 2012)
Sokol Balla: Good evening and welcome to Top Story. As you have seen from the advertising on Top Channel, Top News, and the newspaper Shqip, there is a great echo of expectations for tonight’s Top Story, with the special guest, after 10 months, U.S. Ambassador to Albania, Mr. Alexander Arvizu. Mr. Ambassador, good evening and thank you that you are here again on Top Story.
Ambassador Arvizu: Thank you for inviting me back.
Sokol Balla: In fact, since April of 2011, a lot of things have happened. With the help of your staff, I’ve counted the number of your interviews. Since the first one here on Top Story, you’ve given 12 other long interviews. I also see another change. Ten months ago only the American flag was on your jacket. Now you have both, the American and Albanian flags. After 10 months, after 12 interviews, are you more Albanian now, Mr. Ambassador?
Ambassador Arvizu: Well, you know initially I think I felt it was kind of important to wear Old Glory, the stick pin, and so I’m surely no less patriotic, but you know there are times when I think it’s good to sort of highlight the bilateral cooperation and tonight I’m feeling very charitable, so that’s the reason why.
Sokol Balla: Mr. Ambassador, let’s go into the heavy questions right away. In essence, the High Court found former Deputy PM Meta innocent. Do you have a comment on that?
Ambassador Arvizu: (long pause) I don’t.
Sokol Balla: You seem a bit sad in your response.
Ambassador Arvizu: Well, I know a lot of people have talked about it, you know the one thing from an American perspective that I’m curious about is the admissibility of foreign evidence. There was an U.S. firm that was contacted and provided some analysis at the request of the prosecutors, and for whatever reason, that testimony, that evidence, was thrown out of court. I don’t really know the basis for that but I’m very curious because of the implications for the January 21 investigation. And I know we are going to talk about that, but I certainly hope that is not a broad precedent to not permit foreign evidence to be introduced because if that is the case, then that is going to be a big problem.
Sokol Balla: I will ask you about that a bit later, also in light of new developments in the past two or three days, now that it is known the report of FBI experts on the January 21 investigations, the expertise on the casings in the bodies of the victims, the expertise on the CCTV server whether it was meddled with or not, all these are in that report. I hope it will be publicized soon. One more question on the process against Ilir Meta. Do you think the decision was taken in normal conditions?
Ambassador Arvizu: Could you just elaborate a little bit? What do you mean by that, normal conditions?
Sokol Balla: Was that a decision solely based on accepted or rejected evidence during the trial, or also in circumstances of visible and invisible political pressure?
Ambassador Arvizu: I think one of the concerns was in this case it seemed to suffer from a lot of the afflictions that you see in other trials in Albania: delays, and then more delays, and somewhat confusing, contradictory rulings. So in that sense, it wasn’t that unusual by Albanian judicial standards, but I know there was a lot of attention focused on it for the obvious reasons. Again in any adversarial court system, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the defendant’s guilt. I happen to know that the prosecutors felt like they had a very strong case, but as you noted too, Mr. Meta was proclaimed innocent of the charges.
Sokol Balla: Today is January 19. In two days, we’ll see the first anniversary of the so-called events on the boulevard. In our last interview, April of last year, you made a promise in this studio. Let’s hear it.
Insert: Ambassador Arvizu: I know some people have come up to me and said, you know, our concern is that the January 21 investigation is going to go the same way as Gërdec, and everything else in Albania… I don’t want to do anything while the judicial process is still working because I want to maintain faith in the system. But, if for whatever reason that doesn’t work, it’s my intention to prepare a report. And we will release it, and people can do whatever they want with it. On the news, if you want to put it on there, that’s fine. That would be very satisfactory.
Sokol Balla: When will you issue this report, Mr. Ambassador? Albanian justice has not said its final word on this.
Ambassador Arvizu: Well, maybe I didn’t make it clear in that interview, but our top priority first and foremost has always been to support the Prosecutor General with its investigation and that has actually happened. I know people are a little bit frustrated that it has taken so long. There are reasons for that, and we might get into that a little bit later. But first and foremost, the emphasis has always been on that investigation. And, we have always stressed that it is important that it have three distinct components. First of all, it needs to be comprehensive, it needs to be independent, and it needs to be free of partisan influence. But we felt that based on our analysis of what happened on January 21, which was a terrible day, and if I could just take a brief moment to acknowledge that the most important thing to remember as we enter into this anniversary is to remember and to express our condolences to the family members, that’s the most important thing. But we have always maintained that there was certainly a lot of focus on the actual killings themselves for understandable reasons. But it also is important to acknowledge responsibility to people who organized the demonstration as well as those who were carrying out the violent activities. I think the Prosecutor General understands this. The Prime Minister, when I met with him today, expressed quite a bit of frustration that the component that is focused on the organizers seems not to have progressed. I told him that I shared that frustration. Frankly, I spoke with Ms. Ina Rama, she’s frustrated too, but she gave me some assurances just this week that she would exert her best efforts to do more with that part of the investigation, so that it would indeed be comprehensive. So, I understand people being a little bit impatient, but I say, let’s try and be patient, let’s let this investigation go forward. But it certainly is our intention once the judicial process has been completed to submit an after action report or some kind of executive expert’s report based on our findings.
Sokol Balla: Mr. Ambassador, you took a few seconds to express your condolences to the families of the victims, considering that the most important thing in this anniversary. In fact, that was also the essence of the troika statement, the U.S., the EU, and the OSCE, just one day ago, supported today along the same tones, by the statement from the United Kingdom. Why does it seem that one year after, to the international community, all components are important, but the most important is precisely the killing of the four victims, which you said in your statement, “inexcusable and tragic?”
Ambassador Arvizu: Since this is the one year anniversary and we look back, not to downplay some of the existing political tensions, the uncertainties, but the atmosphere here in Albania compared to a year ago is remarkably different. It’s like night and day. I just remember last year there being almost like an ominous feeling. People just knew something very unpleasant was going to happen, and it did. So, the atmosphere is very different. The investigation, as we are seeing, it is proceeding. A lot of things have changed; a lot of people were injured: protesters, bystanders, police officers. Hopefully, most of those wounds have healed. I’m sure they still remember it, but hopefully, those wounds have healed. But, what is really significantly different, or compared to last year apart from this, one thing still remains the same is that four people – their families when they had New Year’s and we were all celebrating New Year’s – there was somebody missing at the table this year. That’s something that can’t be erased.
Sokol Balla: The prosecutor’s office has taken to court some of the participants who were sentenced, with relatively long terms, almost one year, but as you said, nothing is known about (inaudible) except one arrest from the Guard officers – discovering the truth about the killing of the other three persons. There is a specific charge for one, there is none for the other three. Here is where the Americans come in. In those terrible days, you stood side by side with the Prosecutor General’s Office, and offered, while there was absolute lack of trust by one side in the prosecutors, American expertise from the FBI to investigate the events and everything that happened on January 21. On Monday, Ms. Ina Rama declared that the FBI expertise was awaited before drawing conclusions. Has that expertise arrived Mr. Ambassador?
Ambassador Arvizu: Yes, it has arrived. There had been various components, there were various requests submitted by the prosecutors at different times to the FBI. From my understanding, the bulk, the most important significant parts of what was requested from the FBI, that work has been completed. There maybe one or two auxiliary areas where we are still hopeful that maybe there will be still some additional information. But the main body of the forensic ballistic evidence requested by the Albanian prosecutors that has been requested, that was completed in early January. I called the Assistant Director of the FBI in December. I think you can appreciate the FBI lab in Washington is dealing with a lot of work, significant terrorism cases and criminal cases. I appreciate very much that they took on the request, and in fact, they weren’t able to respond favorably to each and every request by the prosecutors. But they did the best they could. My sense is that the prosecutors are quite pleased with the cooperation. We certainly are pleased with the cooperation. And the last one I just want to underscore that this, from day one, has always been an Albanian prosecutor’s investigation. It is Ina Rama’s investigation. But we have been formally asked to provide some forensic expert advice. We’ve done that, and the Prime Minister, everyone in the government has stated repeatedly that they support this. And so that’s where we are today.
Sokol Balla: Before I ask you a delicate question about whether all sides will accept that expertise after they see its results, I want to ask you something in more detail. You mentioned ballistic expertise – into the bullets, the casings that were shot on January 21, and also those found in the bodies of the victims. That certainly is important to see whether there was involvement of the Guard or whether the bullets came from other directions. Yet, does this expertise also include the much talked about meddling with the servers of the CCTV cameras in the PM’s office?
Ambassador Arvizu: That’s kind of a speculative question. But let me answer this way. We’ve always - I’m talking about the server part - we’ve always maintained that the prosecutors here, like anywhere, are obligated to pursue any leads that develop. And the prosecutors have done that. And if there was a lead in this area or that area, if they submitted evidence or requests for more forensic analysis of some information, we felt obligated to take that under consideration. So basically, wherever the leads have taken the investigation, we have tried to the extent we can to be supportive.
Sokol Balla: You said, in the previous response, that all sides – certainly prosecution as the interested party, but also the government, which had serious contradictions those days with prosecutors, with your mediation, agreed, as you just said, American expertise is unbiased and professional for the right and correct evaluation of evidence found on January 21. As you said, after one year, the situation has changed, things are a bit different. What has not changed is the stance of the majority toward the prosecutor’s office, which it still sees as a party in this investigation. Do you think today, the government and the majority will accept the FBI expertise results?
Ambassador Arvizu: I certainly hope so. I mean that’s been my hope and expectation all along. I remember last year, it was very important for me to obtain assurances from the Prime Minister and other ministers of government that they would cooperate with the investigation. I know some people thought that there was a mismatch between some of the rhetoric and the assurances. And I always maintained that, well, I’m not excusing or saying that the rhetoric is fine, some of it was a little bit excessive, but the important thing for me was the assurance that the government welcomed and it would endorse the findings of the FBI lab in support of the investigations. And as I said again, this is something that I discussed briefly with the Prime Minister today. I have every assurance that people in the government here do indeed recognize that the FBI is impartial, that it is just looking at the evidence. You know, it is the evidence, it doesn’t even have a personality, it’s just what it is, and so the goal is to get to the truth of what really happened, it is not a partisan thing. Everyone should be on the same page, and I think that it is in that spirit that we hope that the courts will also accept that evidence for what it is.
Sokol Balla: So, you’re saying in today’s meeting, the PM confirmed the same will as one year ago?
Ambassador Arvizu: With respect to the American support for the investigation? Yes!
Sokol Balla: You raised it now as a concern, but also at the start of the interview, when talking about American expertise rejected by the High Court in the case against Meta. A colleague of mine that covers the police and courts, suggested an interesting question, and you confirmed that concern: Is there an agreement between the United States and Albania on the administration of criminal evidence? In other words, one piece of evidence secured by the FBI, is that valid for Albanian courts?
Ambassador Arvizu: I don’t know the specific answer to that. I certainly have been operating on the assumption that if the prosecutors here initiated a formal request, that they did so with the full expectation that it would be admissible as evidence in an Albanian court. If I could just elaborate for one minute briefly with the Meta-Prifti trial. Obviously we are following it with a great deal of interest, but that was something where we were very much an interested third party. There was an American firm involved trying to corroborate some evidence, but there was no formal U.S. government role. The difference with the January 21 investigation, there is a formal U.S. Government role. There was a formal request from the prosecution, and in fact our results from the FBI lab, when we conveyed them, we did so under cover of a formal diplomatic note. And again, I have to be very honest here because of some questions about the integrity of the judicial system here in Albania. I and my colleagues at the embassy and the prosecutors, we were extremely meticulous about making sure that every signature, every seal was authenticated, so that there could be no doubt, so that there would be no grounds for anyone in Albania to dismiss the evidence presented on some procedural or technical grounds. Now, whether this is going to be sufficient ultimately to convict someone if charges are brought up, that’s a separate story. But, we wanted to make doubly, triply sure that there was no technical loophole that would result in any evidence from the U.S. side that would not be admissible in an Albanian court.
Sokol Balla: The court is the last chain and the Albanian people including myself, share the same opinion on the integrity of the court. If the prosecution is to act now, based on the FBI-provided evidence and will order arrests, will it encounter resistance from the GOA like it happened soon after January 21st? What is your expectation?
Ambassador Arvizu: I’m sorry you’re saying….
Sokol Balla: If the prosecutors decide to act on this FBI-provided evidence, and make arrests, do you think they will encounter resistance like one year ago when police refused to execute six arrest warrants?
Ambassador Arvizu: I think that one important point is that again this is an Albanian investigation. And we are providing some technical forensic assistance. I have been pretty involved with reviewing the report; I feel like I have a pretty good understanding, but again, I’m not a legal expert. From what I know, the Albanian prosecutors themselves have developed the case. They have amassed the evidence. From what I can see, the additional – and that’s a good term – the additional evidence, forensic support, is just that – it’s support for the conclusions already established or obtained; they should be presented by the prosecutors. Put in another way, I don’t think there’s anything particular that the American side has produced that Albanians have nothing to do with; it’s far from it. It’s all Albanian, but there are some parts where it is additional, corroborating evidence, maybe more extensive testing provided by the American side.
Sokol Balla: Ok. Let’s see what happens in the next few days. Meanwhile, the opposition has announced that it will hold a commemorative rally on the boulevard on January 21st. Have you advised Edi Rama like you did one year ago not to hold this rally, like you did last year? What about the warning to U.S. citizens to avoid the Tirana Boulevard on the day of the rally, does it have anything to do with it?
Ambassador Arvizu: Two separate things. First of all, any U.S. Embassy is obligated to advise our citizens, U.S. citizens, of the potential of any large scale gathering, even if all indications are that it is going to be peaceful; if it’s an unusual gathering in size and purpose, we’re all obligated to do that and that’s what we did. Earlier in the week we put out some information based on the information which I thought was correct, which is that there would be multiple demonstrations. Apparently, that’s not the case and, I think, if it hasn’t been already, it will be amended very shortly to say that it is going to be in Tirana. I met Mr. Rama over lunch last week, we talked about a lot of things, but as you would expect the commemoration came up. I didn’t have to say anything. He brought it up. He explained to me what the Socialist Party was planning to do, and it was consistent with everything else I’ve heard, and it sounds like the intention is for it to indeed be a commemoration of one year, with a somber tone. That sounds like an appropriate and fitting way to remember the passing of these four individuals.
Sokol Balla: On Monday, during his meeting with DP MPs, Prime Minister Berisha, among other things, repeated his warning of last January 23rd to Edi Rama, in a few words, that he’d be risking a lot, personally, if he’d attempt to get close to the Prime Minister’s office. You said that, a year after, things have improved; there is a process of dialogue and cooperation although distrust between the parties continues. Do you think in this new context, Prime Minister Berisha’s warning is hasty or is it just the statement of a man who demands that institutions of a state are not touched, in other words statesmanlike?
Ambassador Arvizu: In my experience here, over the course of the year, one generally positive thing I can say about the Prime Minister is that he speaks very directly –you never have to wonder what he meant with something, he’s pretty clear. That’s the good part. On more than one occasion I’ve thought to myself, “Gee, he probably could have expressed the same thought in a more diplomatic, in a more measured way.” Yes, it could have been more measured, more diplomatic. I think he could have gotten the same message across this time, too.
Sokol Balla: Rama asking for a rally, Berisha making threats, Meta relieved of the charges, and you’re again on Top Story to talk about January 21st. It appears as if nothing has changed from one year ago, or not?
Ambassador Arvizu: I think a lot has changed. As we talked right at the top, with one very sad and very significant exception that four families are missing someone this year. I don’t want to downplay that there is still significant mistrust between the major political actors. As I think about 2012, I think it ought to be a hallmark year for this country—and I think it still can be—for the 100th anniversary of Albanian independence. The political tensions are still there. A lot of people are preoccupied with the selection of the next president. Some of the talk and the actions of the so-called Red and Black Alliance, that’s a little bit of a new element, but there is always going to be something. That’s just the nature of politics. The significant thing is that since last November there has been a bit of a political thaw, the discourse has been more civil, generally, but there have been some more substantive, concrete steps in various committees. There are still some hang-ups – the 3/5 laws, the DP claims they were surprised this past week when Rama’s Ruçi pulled out. I expect to see some back and forth, but there’s a real expectation on the part of the international community, and certainly on the part of Albanians, that the two sides can find a way to address at least some of the pressing issues on which both sides agree that there are problems, such as reform of the electoral code. There’s a long list of priority areas. I know that there’s going to be a long list in a race against time. Without downplaying the significance of the problems, I feel that the atmosphere, the mood, has improved. And I just remember how ominous and foreboding it was a year ago. I think it’s improved.
Sokol Balla: So the situation has changed, but has the U.S. position changed as well? Let’s hear about that in the second part.
Commercial Break
Sokol Balla: Mr. Ambassador, I noted at the beginning of this interview that you are now wearing a pin…in our promo for this interview, there is a moment where we show you changing your eyeglasses. Now I will ask you in a more direct way: has something changed in the U.S. Ambassador and the U.S. regarding the situation in Albania one year after, given that to some extent, you have admitted that some of your statements of one year ago were also the result of the fact that you had just arrived, you could hardly ‘take a breath’ and you were faced with the dramatic January 21st events?
Ambassador Arvizu: It goes without saying that you learn more every day. That process still continues. I suspect that will continue until the last day I serve here. I have to be honest, since a lot of the focus today is about January 21. I look back to those terrible several days, a couple of weeks actually in January last year, and I think it would be helpful to review what we did. No U.S. person or entity was responsible in any way, shape or form for ordering the Republican Guard to shoot. No U.S. person or entity was involved in any way in organizing the demonstration, paying people from Lac or Shkoder or Lezhe – I’m not sure where they came from – to come for the express purpose of making as much trouble as possible, creating a violent demonstration. This was true. No U.S. person was involved in that. But what did the U.S. do? The U.S. was at the forefront of the international community, voicing, calling on the people to exercise restraint from well before January 21 and then in the ensuing days. The U.S. did intervene, or I should say, responded favorably to a request from Albanian prosecutors for assistance with the investigations. This last point is something I’m not sure a lot of people know about, but for those who were here, I’m sure they all recall the tense atmosphere, they all know. Anyone that was here last year remembers the tense atmosphere, almost chaotic scene on the boulevard on January 21 and subsequent days. Cars burning, spent bullet shells, blood; just a terrible scene. I still remember distinctly, on that night of January 21 and for a couple of nights thereafter. Let me be very candid and open. There are about 30-35 embassies here in Tirana. There was one embassy and one ambassador, beginning with that night of January 21 and subsequent nights who was up past midnight, until one, two, three in the morning, maintaining channels of contact with the prosecutors, the ministry of interior, the police. All of these actors were in a very confused situation. Prosecutors arriving on the scene to investigate. The Republican Guard, some maybe cooperating, some – some maybe not cooperating at all – police exhausted; everyone very emotional. It was a very difficult time, but there was one embassy that was trying everything that it could, not to intervene, but to try to create space so these various Albanian institutions could do their work. As I look back at that time, I feel very proud about what the U.S. did at that time.
Sokol Balla: Let me tell you we are really grateful for that. Since you went back to January 21st and the ensuing days, tell me one difficult moment you haven’t yet told anyone?
Ambassador Arvizu: About January 21?
Sokol Balla: That entire period.
Ambassador Arvizu: There was so much happening in such a condensed period of time. I was new here, I’ve had experience before – sadly, maybe this seems to follow me – I’ve been in violent situations in South Korea, in Thailand, and in Cambodia. I think I mentioned this briefly last year in your show, that in a way I was just reacting. I think that generally I have good judgment -- being a diplomat for 30 years, I have some experience, but maybe we were lucky too. I certainly feel like I was lucky and I have a great staff who gave good advice, and even good Albanian friends, who even if they didn’t agree with me, they gave good advice. It was a very, very difficult period and that’s why I’ve worked so hard in subsequent months, whether it was the local elections or trying to help my colleagues from the EU and the OSCE and the rest of the international community here, to try to promote dialogue. If I could, and I don’t mean to go on too long, I think maybe some of the positions that I took early on, and maybe part of the responsibility is mine, for not being a little bit more clear, for not being more articulate. But there was a perception that I was taking one side or that I was being overly critical. I remember a Top Story program. I didn’t speak Albanian then, I don’t speak it now. There was a special on the new American Ambassador, but I remember there was a critical undertone to it. And I thought to myself, this is a concern of mine, so I deliberately set about to reach out to people. You gave me a great opportunity to be a guest. You mentioned 12 TV appearances, I didn’t realize it was that many. My staff always tells me “you’re overexposed,” and maybe I do need to cut back. But I’ll always be grateful for that opportunity. I do think back to that time, there were so many things I didn’t know and now I do feel at home here at Top Channel. The four horsemen, you and Zaganjori, and Joti and Çakuli, but it’s not only here, other channels too. I just feel that I know my way around better. That doesn’t mean that I know everything yet. It’s still a learning process.
Sokol Balla: Mr. Ambassador, you spoke about the investigations, how important it is that they are impartial, comprehensive, and objective and that the U.S. assistance will help in that regard and that it will be welcomed by all sides? Do you think there is ground to the political parties’ fears that the January 21st investigation may be used politically, in particular, the majority’s fears that 21 January investigations are being used politically?
Ambassador Arvizu: I think, that because January 21 is so big, it’s so charged, that it is going to be very difficult for any political side not to try to take advantage of it a little bit. I have to be honest with the victims, the four families, and I don’t mean this about Mr. Rama or the vast majority of the SP, but I think there are some people in this country with a political agenda, who shamelessly, in my view, are trying to exploit the deaths for political advantage. On the other side, and I’ve spoken with the PM and some other ministers at length, the fact is that someone or some people issued orders to the Republican Guard to shoot live rounds at protesters. And that needs to be investigated. What were the circumstances? That is why we’ve given a lot of focus and attention to that. Is this a volatile issue for the majority? It shouldn’t be. It’s certainly something that is not welcome from their perspective, but this did happen and it just seems to me, whether you are on the majority side or the opposition side, if this investigation goes the way it should that it can, hopefully it should, bring some measure of closure to the families of the victims, but no one can feel that it’s at the expense of their interests, and that the other side won everything. It shouldn’t be about winning and losing. There was a terrible injustice done in Albania that day, and as I have said before, there is a lot of responsibility to go around for that. Obviously, someone shot and killed four people – that stands above everything else. But there are other circumstances. And so, if the investigation is done properly, thoroughly and comprehensively, I think it’s something that all Albanians can take away and say, “You know what, in this case, unlike some other cases, there was some measure of justice done.” It’s not going to bring back the lives of the four people who were killed, for the people who were hit in their head, whether it was police officers or protesters, they’re always going to remember that ache. But for the society as a whole, if the investigation is done properly, it may help turn the corner a little bit and say “you know what, it is possible for justice in this country to be carried out.” At least, that’s my hope and my ambition.
Sokol Balla: We’re taking about the political implications of January 21st. I asked for one side already and now I’ll ask a question about the other side. In the troika statement, as well as the UK Embassy statement today, it is stressed that the office of the Prosecutor General is the appropriate institution to carry out these investigations, also with the support of the international community. At the same time, there exists a parliamentary investigative committee on the so called January 21st ‘coup d’état.’ I’m using the word ‘exists,’ as it only exists on paper. Its mandate is continuously extended; most recently its mandate was extended beyond July 2012. Someone may say that after Mr. Topi is no longer president but a common citizen of the Boulevard, he may perhaps be investigated by this committee headed by and made up of majority MPs alone, this time as “the Boulevard’s Topi.”
Ambassador Arvizu: Just very briefly on the parliamentary committee. I think for any American, and I think for a lot of Albanians too, at least in my lifetime too, I think the most significant committee would have to have been the Watergate investigation. I was in high school then but I remember it very vividly, being an avid student of politics. I think in many ways that is sort of a gold standard, that’s what people hold up. In theory, a parliamentary committee of investigation has merit as these are the elected representatives of the people. But in the Albanian situation, it’s a totally partisan body. The opposition has chosen not to participate. It’s certainly not my position to say disband it or anything like that, but it does not hold any standing with the United States government. We have proclaimed all along that the proper investigative authority for this tragedy is the Prosecutor’s Office.
Sokol Balla: You said one year later, many things have changed for the better. Is Edi Rama today more acceptable to America than one year ago?
Ambassador Arvizu: I’m going to answer the question in a little bit different way. I think that one of the things I’m pleased about is that Mr. Rama and I, after a year, have a lot better understanding of each other. And I think that Mr. Rama has a lot better understanding of how the U.S. views this situation, the U.S. expectations of him as the leader of the established opposition. That goes back to one of your questions earlier about what’s changed. I just feel that across the board, there is a lot better understanding of my relationships, but it’s not about me, it’s about the U.S. and how the U.S. feels about certain personalities and institutions.
Sokol Balla: Do you and the U.S. see a future PM in him?
Ambassador Arvizu: Well, he’s the leader of the opposition that is only a few votes short of the majority, and you look at recent elections and it’s very, very close. It’s certainly very easy to conceive of him being the next prime minister, assuming he’s the candidate for 2013. He indicated he is, so, sure.
Sokol Balla: Is Sali Berisha today the same one he was to the United States one year ago?
Ambassador Arvizu: With him, I think, like with everyone, there has been more in-depth understanding of my position, the U.S. position. I don’t feel there has been a real material change in the U.S. perception of him. You’d have to ask him how he feels about the United States or me personally, but I don’t think there’s been much change from my perspective.
Sokol Balla: Do you see a future president in him?
Ambassador Arvizu: Mr. Berisha? He was president before.
Sokol Balla: Do you see a head of state that represents the unity of the people in Jozefina Topalli?
Ambassador Arvizu: Sokol Olldashi said she could be a good president, I guess. You’ve interviewed her on this show, you could tell me.
Sokol Balla: I’ve interviewed her as the Speaker of the Parliament. No doubt, she’s a solid politician. My question is do you see her as a President of the Republic that represents unity?
Ambassador Arvizu: She is the Speaker of the Parliament. She occupies a very prominent position in the Albanian political landscape. So I certainly think, as people contemplate candidates for high offices, who will be president, prime minister, or anything like that, you look around and see who’s occupying these key positions, so, in that sense, sure. But as to what are the desired qualities of the new president, there’s been a lot of talk about that, but I’d probably be stealing your next question, so I’ll let you ask the next question.
Sokol Balla: Do you see a potential President of the Republic in Fatos Nano?
Ambassador Arvizu: He said he’s available if called upon. I try not to get too involved in analyzing one person’s strengths or another. He’s obviously a veteran politician. Politics everywhere is described as the art of compromise, knowing how to make deals, political deals. I’ve met him a few times, but a lot of people tell me whether they like him a lot or whether they don’t like him a lot, but they all think that he’s a very nimble, a very adept politician. That is one of the traits, one of the skills that I think is useful – it’s not the only one. I’ve said it before, one quality I think would be helpful in the next president is somebody with good communication skills. I hope this comes across properly, but I have noticed a lot of Albanians have very strong strengths, but there aren’t a whole lot of good communications skills, to be able to figure out a way to reach across to somebody with very different views. I think that could be a very desirable quality in the next president.
Sokol Balla: You spoke about politics as the art of compromise. One year ago, you said that you’d find the election of a consensual president difficult. In the 22 years of pluralistic history, in 1992 and 1997, Berisha was elected president twice with the votes of the majority. The same happened with Meidani in 1997 and Topi in 2007. Only Moisiu in 2002 was elected consensually as a candidate of the DP in opposition. Do you think we are politically in the situation of the political crisis of 2002 and we should elect a consensual president, or should we just follow the constitution, as the Prime Minister says, letter by letter on this issue?
Ambassador Arvizu: I knew this question was coming. It is funny, because if I were to say, “Yes, the President should be elected by consensus,” they’ll say "Arvizu is joining Ambassador McIlwham, the German Ambassador, Ambassador Wollfarth, etc." And if I say the President should be elected in accordance with the constitution, which happens to be true, they’ll say, “You know, he’s endorsing Berisha again.” I think the way I choose to look at it is there’s a real opportunity here to choose, to select who will represent the unity of the people, who is a good communicator, who represents the people well, who has some experience in the art of compromise. It could be a politician, though it doesn’t have to be. It could be someone with a lot of business experience, or a scholar, or an academic.
Sokol Balla: What you’re saying goes completely against PM Berisha who is talking about a ‘political candidature’ for the presidential seat.
Ambassador Arvizu: But what does he mean when he says that? An established politician? Is that the notion?
Sokol Balla: I hope I’m quoting him accurately: “the next president will be a political figure; any senior DP leader qualifies for the position; and the opposition, just like we voted their candidate for the Ombudsman’s position, is expected to vote our candidate.”
Ambassador Arvizu: I would certainly hope and expect that there would be some measure of consultation between the majority and the opposition about various people, various candidates for this high office. I’m a little bit reluctant to use the Office of the Ombudsman as an example. That’s obviously a very important function but we’re talking about a different dimension here. So, yes, the fact that with the Ombudsman the two sides could come to some agreement – that’s positive, that’s encouraging. But I don’t think we should be under any illusions as this is at a different level and it’s not going to be easy. But I still maintain that this is an opportunity. There are many, many Albanians who could fulfill this role ably, with integrity, with dignity. The problem is people have different expectations. There are some of my opposition friends who I know would love to get somebody in there to “block” the Prime Minister. It’s important to have checks and balances. But checks and balances do not mean somebody who is going to be an obstructionist. I’ve said this before. I think it is important to have somebody who is able to work with the cabinet, the government, the prime minister; that’s part of good governance. But it’s also important to have a degree of independence. Sometimes, if you are the Prime Minister, who is like the CEO, and you are running the government, you come up with an idea and it makes perfect sense to you and your council of ministers when you have your weekly meeting and you start doing this and that. But somebody, a president, who can sit back and say, “You know what, I don’t think that’s in the interest of the country and neither am I going to go along with it.” or “It needs a little bit more work.” It’s hard to do that consensually, but I’m a little bit uncomfortable when people say “there has to be a check.” Yes, in a positive way, but not to obstruct the governing of the country. But, by the same token, you don’t want a rubber stamp, take it from the Council of Ministers and “Approved.” No! That’s farcical and not suitable for Albania in 2012. No. That would be a big mistake.
Sokol Balla: What you just said is a very strong statement. As it stands now, there is only one name outside the majority who could achieve that. Based also on the experience of relations between Mr. Berisha and Mr. Topi, I don’t believe Prime Minister Berisha would agree to the candidacy of someone who would dare to challenge the Government of Albania’s decisions.
Ambassador Arvizu: I don’t think he’s going to put forward the name of a sworn enemy or somebody who he knows is going to oppose him at every turn and every corner. I sure wouldn’t, and I think you would not either. But I do think that it’s certainly within him to come up with someone who he can work with. I certainly don’t begrudge him that. I’d want somebody who I could work with, but who would be good in that position. It is possible, and I think that’s why I think there are a couple of different levels in the initial process. I think it would be great if they could agree the first time around. I hope it doesn’t have to come down to that last level. That’s why I say let’s think of this as an opportunity. Let’s all understand, and you recounted some of the historical precedents with Mr. Moisiu, Mr. Meidani and others. Obviously that somebody would be from the Prime Minister’s side who would be proposed that would be acceptable to the opposition on the first round; that would be the ideal, the optimal scenario. Is it likely? I guess I’m foolish enough to believe yes, it can be done. It’s going to require wisdom on all sides. It’s going to require wisdom on the side of the majority, but certainly a reasonable amount of wisdom on the side of the opposition, too.
Sokol Balla: On Ora News TV a few weeks back, you made a shocking statement a few weeks ago – that the opposition, after being able to adequately display and make known its project, could and should be voted by a majority in 2013, that is to say, come to power, as that would be good for the country. Do you stand by that statement today or do you think you need to explain or elaborate it somewhat?
Ambassador Arvizu: I always get nervous when you say “you said something shocking in an earlier interview.” Can I just digress for a second here? Initially, there were some people in the opposition, some supporters who had suspicions of me, and maybe some still do. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. But sometimes, you know what I think to myself? I think the opposition should have named me their Man of the Year because from the beginning I have tried to counsel positions that I think are responsible, that would strengthen the opposition. In a democratic system there needs to be competition and both sides need to put their best foot forward. There is one critical component there, which are elections. Elections have to be transparent. I remember after the local elections in May, I was having a discussion with some of the Albanian employees at the embassy, and one of them, and I’m sure she’s watching tonight and she has always been a strong supporter of the SP, and she was obviously very distraught by what happened in the Tirana mayoral election and there were some other employees. We were talking about how it was a controversial process. I pointed out that I thought that Basha ran an excellent campaign. I thought Mr. Rama made some critical mistakes. What we ended up with was a statistical dead-heat with Rama leading with only ten votes after the preliminary counting. That was a very difficult situation and she said, and I stress again she’s a strong socialist supporter, “The problem is for people like me, a socialist supporter, one election is a voter list issue, another issue is the miscast ballots. There’s always a sense that there’s always going to be something; always some complication that sort of tilts the balance in favor of one side.” And I said that’s why people have to work hard, that on Election Day they should put their best foot forward so that these elections aren’t so razor thin, so that somebody is ahead by more than just a few votes. But that’s certainly a big task for the international community, for the friends of Albania, to work to try to strengthen the system so that there is more transparency, so that when people go to the polls that they have more confidence that in fact, if you are in the opposition, that there is a way to bring your party into power. The concept of rotation is important. People have to believe that it is possible to rotate. The parties also have to be good enough to get elected. So there are these two elements and they have to go hand in hand.
Sokol Balla: So you stand by that statement as I understand it. I said it was a shocking statement because as you yourself noted, part of the public opinion that supports the opposition, but also impartial, have had a general conviction that you in fact supported Berisha. After this statement, when in a way you suggest political rotation, there may be another part of the public opinion who supports the majority to say “Who is Alexander Arvizu to suggest a rotation of power in 2013, even if the Albanians do not intend to vote the opposition in?”
Ambassador Arvizu: I was not suggesting that, and I apologize if there was a misconception that there should be a rotation just because there should be a rotation. Frankly, that’s very undemocratic, it’s not the way democracies work. Otherwise, why would you have elections? Otherwise you could say, “OK, it is 2013; so it’s the Socialists’ turn, or it is 2017 so it’s the Democrats’ turn.” No. But, the people, whether your favorite color is blue or your favorite color is red, you have to believe that there is sufficient integrity in the system that makes rotation possible. In the U.S., I have a lot of friends who are registered Democrats or Republicans. I’m a registered Democrat, and I tend to vote Democratic, and I would say, "Gee, I have no problem thinking that the Democrats should always be in power." But there’s also something in me that says, “You know what, if you’re in power too long, things are taken for granted, you can get a little bit lazy.” So, I probably would still vote Democratic, but, in theory, it’s not bad to rotate out, but the other side has to earn it.
Sokol Balla: Absolutely, but there should also be an accurate vote counting process. We’ll return shortly after a commercial break with Ambassador Arvizu to talk about the U.S. position on developments in Albania.
Commercial Break
Sokol Balla: We are back again with the third part of the interview with the Ambassador of the United States, Mr. Arvizu. Mr. Arvizu, yesterday former Ambassador Withers to Albania broke his almost two-year silence with a long interview on Voice of America. We don’t have the time to air it, but his statements were very strong, very critical toward the situation in this country, against what he termed as the political system being on the verge of failure, strong criticisms against the justice system. He said that Albania is backsliding in the direction of a Russian model, or Ukrainian model, or in a best case scenario, a Hungarian regime, which today is a center of criticism in the European Union. Do you have a comment on these statements and do you agree with them?
Ambassador Arvizu: First of all, I saw the tape. He looks happy and relaxed. So, maybe that’s something I can look forward to at some point. I listened very carefully to his comments. I know that John has tremendous affection for this country and its people and so it’s a genuine sense of caring about the country. I share his assessment in what I sense was his frustration with the slow pace of some developments. I would not, certainly in my capacity, but even if I were in his shoes I’m never comfortable with making references to specific countries. I just think there are too many unique circumstances. That’s one point, a fairly minor one. I don’t agree that there is backsliding here. I think, however, that it is fair to say that there is at best very slow progress. That is the progress in recent years has slowed down dramatically, and in some instances it is at a complete standstill; it’s stagnated. It may seem like a minor semantic point, but if your expectations are for progress, than yeah, it is not a good situation at all for the progress to slow down or for it to stagnate. I’ve said before, that although Albania has made tremendous advances in the last twenty years, I think it is time now that the past can no longer be used as an excuse for the lack of more dramatic progress now and into the future.
Sokol Balla: You often praise Albania’s help to NATO, in your speeches, including at the 20th anniversary remarks, but why then, according to information circulation in the media, isn’t everything shared with our country by the Atlantic Council, i.e. things are kept from it? You don’t have confidence because we’ve not kept secrets or…?
Ambassador Arvizu: I don’t have a concern because I’m not aware of that element or dimension. From everything I know Albania is a member in good standing in NATO. It is one of the 28. Obviously there is a vast array of capabilities, but that is one of the hallmarks of the Alliance. It’s great that Albania is in NATO and is a member in good standing and making significant contributions in its own way.
Sokol Balla: Two final questions from me, then we’ll go to some questions from the viewers or social network goers. When talking about the election for the president, it is understood that the after the election of the president, it will be the time for the election for the Prosecutor General of the Republic, and then the election of the Head of the Secret Service. Bahri Shaqiri, the head of SHISH, is he still a reliable partner for the U.S. and should remain the head of SHISH?
Ambassador Arvizu: Our cooperation with SHISH under Mr. Shaqiri is superb. We enjoy, and I’ve said this before, I look around and I can’t think of a part of the government where we don’t have tremendous access, great support across the board. I feel very fortunate compared to other ambassadors, friends of mine in other countries. With respect to SHISH, for me, it is the gold standard. The level of expertise, cooperation, is terrific. So, sure, if he were to be given another mandate, that would be warmly welcomed by the U.S.
Sokol Balla: Meanwhile, it appears that Ms. Ina Rama is in her last months of work as Prosecutor General. In September, the prosecutor should be elected. Depending also on how the president is elected, how do you think the next chief prosecutor should be elected? By competition, consensus, or the constitution?
Ambassador Arvizu: The new president has a key role in the PG’s selection, right?
Sokol Balla: So, we leave it up to him?
Ambassador Arvizu: Sure, we should leave it up the President. But if I could just comment briefly on the process. I think it is really important in Albania for rules and procedures to be observed. Unfortunately, in the political game, the day to day issues, sometimes whether you are in the opposition or the majority, adhering to the rules can be used to obstruct. It is not the original intent. The basic foundation of any functioning democratic society is adherence to the rules. Rule of law oftentimes just becomes a catch phrase and it loses its meaning. But it actually has tremendous meaning. Adherence to the rules is the understanding that everyone needs to observe the same rules. That is, I think, at the core of a lot of problems here in this country. So with the respect to, and getting back to your question, I think that the new Prosecutor General ought to be selected in accordance with the rules that are understood by everyone.
Sokol Balla: I have some questions from viewers on Twitter. I believe you know what it is. It is a social network that in Albanian is translated as tweeting (imitation of bird song – ciu ciu) and that is where Rama often replies to the government recently… May I read some of those questions?
Ambassador Arvizu: Sure.
Sokol Balla: Orges Zoto, a viewer who lives in America, asks: What would the American people think if President Obama were to meet with former Chicago Governor Ron Blagojevich a few days before the court ruling? For everyone’s information, the former governor was found guilty and sentenced for corruption a few months ago. The viewer obviously refers to the frequent meetings of Mr. Berisha with Mr. Meta before the High Court ruling.
Ambassador Arvizu: There is one significant difference and that is Mr. Blagojevich was convicted of a crime and sentenced to fourteen years in prison.
Sokol Balla: Related to this, another question: Though the High Court ruling is not appealable, do you think the Meta-Prifti scandal case is closed or not?
Ambassador Arvizu: It is just my sense that a lot of Albanians are really tired of the whole Meta-Prifti issue and the controversy. If you are a strong supporter of Mr. Meta, obviously you are delighted that he was exonerated. I’m sure that if you are in the majority you are relieved that he was exonerated. People who believe that he was engaged in illegal activity probably felt that justice was not served. I scrupulously avoided commenting earlier. I just get the sense that people would be just as happy to move on and not hear anymore about these secret video tapes, or this thing or that thing.
Sokol Balla: Someone else from Twitter, a little ironic: How proud do you feel for the state of Albanian institutions, which you too have contributed to during this past year?
Ambassador Arvizu: You mean the U.S. assistance programs?
Sokol Balla: I believe he references more the political rapport with some institutions.
Ambassador Arvizu: Obviously, we believe that stronger, independent institutions are good for Albania. The ones that seem to get mentioned a lot are the institution of the Presidency, the Prosecutor General, the SHISH director, but there is also the Ombudsman, the State Audit Agency, but you know the Parliament is an institution too. The political parties are institutions. Last week, not that long ago, I went to the Re-FRESH party convention. Erion Veliaj sent me an invitation, and even though it was my anniversary and I had to ask my wife for permission, I went. I think it is important for young people to get involved in politics. These are going to be the future leaders of the country. The established leaders now, they’re doing fine, and maybe they’re not done yet, but eventually everyone has to move on and it is important for the new generation of leaders to get bitten by the political bug early.
Sokol Balla: Again from Twitter – a follower recommends you publish the latest cable before Wikileaks does.
Ambassador Arvizu: We don’t comment on Wikileaks. Wikileaks makes a diplomat’s life more difficult. Hopefully through my public statements and talking to people, people really know how I really feel about issues.
Sokol Balla: In any event, if you wish to speak again and openly, you’re always welcome on Top Story, Mr. Ambassador.
Ambassador Arvizu: Thanks very much.